Curse

Am I A Good Sin · Aug 16, 2006, 02:48 AM // 02:48

Hi. Anet admins. I have a few questions. Y do assassins have limited healing and LOW base dagger dmg? Also y do assassins have so much high energy costs such as recall? U say that u want balance but when it comes to it assassins have hardly any healing like other professions do and hardly any defences. For a melee fighter they should have more defences and if not that then better armour or lower energy costs and recharge time. I mean who wants a kill every 20 seconds? Sometimes not even that since some won't die from 1 combo. Also what about the daggers? Sure they r cool and u do get 2 hits SOMETIMES but knives are as sharp and deadly as a sword so y not at least sword based max dmg? What about the combos all being linked? U should have a skill that lets u use any atk without linking it and the skill lasts for 20 seconds something like that. Assassins r hit and run right? As I have seen there r few hit and run skills maybe a running skill that teles u back where u started the skill but I mean wouldn't it be tough to reach and kill ur opponent in a certain time without getting mobbed or shadowstepping 5 steps away? All these r problems that lead to the player not being good with the class, but in reality the class just isn't good. Its a fun class I must admit but its no fun dieing every 20 seconds cause ur armour isn't good or u don't have anything to dodge attacks or block em. And of course u say well shadow form does dodge those but shadow form is an elite and takes an elite slot up so y use it when u can put something in to make u last longer than however long shadow form lasts cause 1 hit and ur dead. So plz change the assassin class for the good of all guild wars. I'm not asking for stances or warrior type armour just maybe instead of 70 how bout 85? How bout more healing or shadow refuge lasting as long as healing breeze? Lower energy costs is a neccessity to link ur combos. Some defences like whirling defence and lightning reflexes would even the tables a bit. I'm sure just doing 2 or 3 of these suggestions would say that u care what ur customers think and that u r trying ur best to please us. And to the guild wars players. Post what u think should be done. I'm sure my ideas scrath the surface of what u think.

lapsus · Aug 16, 2006, 03:18 AM // 03:18

Idk man, the class is balanced nicely but i agree with you on the dagger damage. it is really low in mt opinion but if it were much higher the combos would become overly powerful. Theres also a large number of healing and defense skills. Crit defense and WoP are good skills to have. Crit Defense makes you almost immune to attacks (75% block, i think) so long as you crit every 6 secs. and WoP heals you 27 health every crit so that helps out healing and defense. to supe up the armor of the sin would further push the line of un-balance, if the lack of Armor bothers you get Nightstalkers or Valkyrie that should help out alot.

Zinger314 · Aug 16, 2006, 03:24 AM // 03:24

You just killed English.

Anyways, your suggestions are unrealistic. It's the player that's crap, not the class. (to an extent.)

Am I A Good Sin · Aug 16, 2006, 03:37 AM // 03:37

Well u c here is where ur wrong. I've seen the 70 armour get tons of dmg from power atk alone ( I got 60 from it with maxed armour ) also eneergy costs r to high to get in and out and kill an opponent lets just say 5 to get in. 5 for lead atk then 10 for offhand then 5 for dual and 10 for leaving most of the times its 5 + 10 + 10 + 5 then the cost of getting out around 5 I geuss. There's 35 energy taken and some combos r 4 atks long. Like some I've seen take 35 energy on the combo itself. The assassin was made to get in kill get out. Energy cost = to high. Better armour = survive to get enough energy to live to get out. And where do u heal at? That takes energy to. There is to high enrgy cost and not enough energy. And yes the daggers should be more powerful. I'm not saying make the assassins armour a lot better just a lil bit and energy raise the assassins or cut down on energy cost. Those alone would allow a sin to live to tell the story of a kill ( I mean the ideas I listed on this post not the ones in the beginning , those would help to ). Don't forget u also have to get ur skills recharged to get in kill and get out again and that's a lot of down time.

lapsus · Aug 16, 2006, 03:48 AM // 03:48

Hehe yet again all skill choice. Some skills (unsuspecting strike, wild blow, critical strike, WoP, CD and WoTL to name a few) have either fast recharges or a duration as long as or longer then the re-charge time. And although shadow stepping takes time the point is to hit, run and heal. not hit, run, hit again and run. Also the energy management is the players problem, i can pull my full combo and half again with only a few attacks not skills, all in all i think the energy required is like 30, if you wait a second or 2 to regen before you rush in.

Mr D J · Aug 16, 2006, 03:52 AM // 03:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

You just killed English.

QFT.

Back to the subject. IMO assassins are balanced. Did you see assassins from evil own hardcore?

Am I A Good Sin · Aug 16, 2006, 04:08 AM // 04:08

Ok so some skills take a while to charge and some don't. But shadowstep skills normally take a while to recharge ( deaths charge for instance ) and some ( such as recall ) take to much energy. They could cut down a bit on energy don't ya think? Maybe make shadow refuge last longer? But think of the daggers this way. A war has 1 big sword right. And u as a sin have 2 equally sharp knives. The least anet could do is raise the daggers to a higher max dmg and a higher least dmg. The armour could be increased a lil bit to maybe by 5 or 10 at max. They rnt big changes but at least theyr good changes right. Just 1 of these would help all sins.

Relambrien · Aug 16, 2006, 04:22 AM // 04:22

The OP posted again as I was typing this, so for any inconsistencies see the area labeled EDIT: at the end of the post.

Here are the points the OP made, in an easy-to-understand format. I will make my own responses to them AFTER I finish listing them out.

1. Assassins have very little self-healing compared to other professions.
2. Daggers have a low base damage, and should be buffed to 15-22 like a sword.
3. Assassins are meant to be played in a hit-and-run style, yet have few skills to support this. Thus, their armor level should be increased to compensate.
4. Assassins have very few blocking or evasion skills, which is a problem as they are melee characters.
5. Shadow Form is an awful skill in that it takes up an elite, and once it runs out you're dead.

The rest is pretty incomprehensible to me, might I suggest you look at Rule #9 in the Forum Rules, OP?

And in his second post...

6. The Energy cost for Assassin skills is too high, and combos aren't possible when you expend 35 energy to do one combo and get out.

Anyway, here are my responses to the OP's points.

1. Assassins aren't meant to need much self-healing. They are supposed to Shadow Step in, get a quick combo off and then get back before they can take too many hits. In PvE this shouldn't be a problem as long as you have a decent tank. Also, see my response to point number three for more info.
2. Dagger damage is fine. Without skills, an assassin has approximately the same dps as an axe warrior. This was tested on the AL 60 dummies in the Isle of the Nameless.
3. Here is a list of all the hit-and-run style skills the Assassin has, at least those that I can think of off the top of my head:

Aura of Displacement
Death's Charge
Return
Recall
Caltrops
Dark Escape
Shadow of Haste
Dash
Spirit Walk

And I'm sure there are more. As you can see, there is no problem with the hit-and-run capability of the Assassins. If anything, just Death's Charge in, combo, Dark Escape out. Spirit Walk is good if you have a Ranger or Ritualist on your team. The Assassin has plenty of hit-and-run skills.
4. I already said that Assassins aren't meant to take damage. Thus, blocking and evasion skills aren't needed so long as the Assassin can actually be played well by the person using it.
5. Shadow Form is actually the answer to your prayers, OP. Cast it just as you go in, get a combo off, and run back to your backline before it runs out. A Monk or someone can then heal you while the enemies are still fighting the tank, provided the tank is actually doing his job.
6. I play an Assassin in both PvE and PvP and never have an Energy problem. Why? Because I choose my skills carefully. Way of the Lotus is excellent energy management, particularly in PvE. I also generally prefer to skip the lead attack and go right to the powerful attacks by using Golden Phoenix Strike, which is an off-hand attack that doesn't need to follow a lead attack. And about recharging and downtime, what do you think Assassins are supposed to do after the "run" part of "hit-and-run?" They wait and regen until they can spike again. That's what they're best at: spiking one target. Thus, energy should never be a problem.

So no, Assassins do not need a buff. They are perfectly fine as-is. The only reason you see them dying so much is because many people who play them can't play them well. Their damage output is top-notch, and their armor is lower to act as a balance. If played correctly, armor shouldn't be a factor at all anyway. Assassins have Energy management skills of their own, so that isn't a problem either.

Now, and I MUST stress this...

View Rule #9 in the Forum Rules section as soon as possible, OP, please. Adhering to it will make everyone's life a little easier. Though in your most recent post you seem to be adhering to it MUCH more than your first two.

EDIT: OP posted again as I was typing this.

Now, I agree that Death's Charge has a long recharge time. But if you play well and let the tank gather aggro before going in, then you won't need to shadow step anyway. You could always use Dark Escape as a panic button. For PvP purposes, Assassins are used as solo base-gankers. They are FANTASTIC at this because of one skill: Aura of Displacement. It's a maintained enchantment, but all you use it for is to get up, unleash your combo, and get out while the degen kills your target. Its recharge is 20 seconds, but you'll be recharging other skills during that time frame anyway.

Also, read above for the argument on dagger damage. Trust me, it's unnecessary. Sins do enough damage as it is. Besides, what's gonna hurt more? A 4-inch dagger wound or an 12-inch sword gash?

lapsus · Aug 16, 2006, 04:24 AM // 04:24

It just is stressing patience, deaths charge is only useful to hit a dieing or soft enemy. Daggers should do less damage then swords though, they are 1/8the size of said 2 handed monster sword. An armor increase of a small portion like that wouldnt help at all, its not enough to make a differance. If shadow refuge lasted longer itd be healing breeze.

stillarook · Aug 16, 2006, 05:09 AM // 05:09

I wish they'd make more teleportation skills that somewhat like AoD, but with different requirements.

hated · Aug 16, 2006, 05:14 AM // 05:14

Daggers don't do much damage, because the huge damage that assassin skills put out. If you're swinging away for base damage at a target with full health you should be dead.

Overall to the OP, you really want to know why some assassin skills suck, have a long charge, or cost too damn much? Here's why...get ready for this...it's a doozy
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W/A

That's it, that's the only reason why. Warriors basically can grab any and all teleport skills they want and clean house, hence the need for long charges or high costs.

The reason AoD was changed to 10e? Other characters were using it BETTER than assassins.

The reason why we'll never see a shadow step non-elite that recharges under 45 seconds? Other classes will use it BETTER.

It drives me insane that anet didn't

A.) Put any good shadow steps in crit arts
or
B.) Give assassin skills the 4 or below failure clause.

GG anet, gg.

Mera Regila · Aug 16, 2006, 05:27 AM // 05:27

Why would anet put any shadow steps in Critical Arts? In fact, what do shadowsteps have to do with Critical Arts AT ALL. GG hated, gg.

hated · Aug 16, 2006, 05:33 AM // 05:33

....it has nothing to do with critical arts it has to do with the overusage of assassin skills by other classes.

Yes I know that shadow steps have nothing to do with crit arts that's why there's a number 2 in that line, try reading next time before you sound like an ass...whoops..too late.

stillarook · Aug 16, 2006, 06:21 AM // 06:21

Maybe it can be a weak shadow step, which would be pretty cool.

Hella Good · Aug 16, 2006, 06:25 AM // 06:25

Whine more. Join all the Eles in their manic depression. Seriously, now Sins suck. What's next? Poor Necros.... they sooooooo useless. I can see it coming...

ZystD · Aug 16, 2006, 06:44 AM // 06:44

Response to energy being too much;

Expose Defenses 10
Mark of instability 10
Deaths charge 5 -- regen between two stances leaves energy at ~14 before this skill
Black lotus 10 -- restores energy to 20
assassin promise 5
twisting fangs 10
falling spider 5
horns of ox 5
60 energy combo (with 28 energy MAX on char) (assassin promise spiker thread)

-- Thats my combo, and would you believe that my energy is ALWAYS 28/28 after it? Crit hits and some VERY nice energy renewal skills for the assassin class. I think the class is fine the way it is, it'd be godly with more damage from base dagger damage.

Theres a reason why sins have 4 energy regen like casters do. Theres a reason why skills are set up the way they are, in combos, sin skills arent meant to be used alone, like other classes skills can be.

lagrand1 · Aug 16, 2006, 07:02 AM // 07:02

They are balanced as it is. They will go in and do massive damage and get out before being targeted. A one man pure kill spike would be unbalanced. If the opponent isn't paying attention, one spike can kill, but it would be unbalanced if it always kills.

As far as energy, try having mesmer secondary. Or use different skills.

prodigy ming · Aug 16, 2006, 07:21 AM // 07:21

Quit blaming why most assassin suck soley on the player although the player is also responsible. If you want to see a list of why assassin is broken and NOT perfectly balanced, go read the thread "Whats wrong with assassin".

People keep saying go in and do "massive damage" then get out theory. The problem is, one spike usually doesn't kill off a single target, but no matter if he is dead or not you would have to get out due to lack of armor. Now you end up with the monk healing your target back to full health and you suffer a long down time and really accomplish nothing much in the end. In PvP almost everyone, espeically primary target like monks have some sort of evasion skill, one miss in your attack chain will end your combo immediately and back to waiting for everything to recharge. Sure you can bring skill that make your attacks cannot be blocked or evaded, but one sin combo is pretty energy heavy already, not alot of viable combo may allow you to have extra skill like this.

I agree that some shadow stepping skills (better ones) to be added to the critical strike line and make shadow stepping more unique to assassins.

silent assasin dusk · Aug 16, 2006, 07:53 AM // 07:53

there are energy skills u know ie golden lotus if it hits u gain energy and i have it on 10 energy which is enough for the next 2 atks and Aod doest have a limit on how long u can hold it so u can use it the tele in and when ur low stop it to tele out and i agree the incresing dagger dmg will make combos to powerfull and armour well u only loads of dmg if u dont know what ur doing a crap warrior would take a ton of dmg. ur complaints are unrealsitc

silent assasin dusk · Aug 16, 2006, 07:56 AM // 07:56

oh and also prodidgy i normally get target dead in 1 trip jagged-wild-ox/blossom then golden lotus-wild-ox/blossom that kills my target then i get out and heal